Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 6 Num. 98

("Quid coniuratio est?")


(Spotlight, Jan. 15, 1996)

The latest developments in independent investigations of the Oklahoma City bombing were discussed on the December 13 [1995] broadcast of The Spotlight's nightly call-in talk forum, Radio Free America [RFA, 5.065 MHz shortwave, mon-fri, 9 pm cst], with host Tom Valentine.

The guest was Jon Rappoport, author of The Oklahoma City Bombing: The Suppressed Truth, which is available at $12 per copy by writing: Jon Rappoport, 2633 Lincoln Boulevard, Suite No. 256, Santa Monica, CA 90405. [CN -- An excellent book but, as always, caveat emptor]

An edited transcript of the interview with Rappoport follows...

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Could you give us an update on your latest findings?

The unassailable fact is that the truck bomb Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols are alleged to have used could not have caused the major damage to the building. You have to be dealing with professionals who put charges inside the building on the columns to get the pattern of damage that was found there.

Assume that a group of professionals linked up with McVeigh and got some professionals to go inside the building and set the real charges, allowing McVeigh to think that he's doing the job alone.

Now if this were the case, the FBI would then come in and figure out in about five minutes that McVeigh was just the dupe and the real damage was done by the professionals inside the building. It's absurd to think that the professionals involved then figured that they could "pay off" the FBI to cover up for them.

The bottom line is that, if the FBI is covering up for the damage done by other charges set off inside the building, which indeed the FBI is doing, then you have got to be talking about an operation that has its roots inside the government somewhere. You aren't talking about some small group of wackos who were involved here.

That's right. Somebody had to be able to convince the FBI's field workers, who are legitimate, hard-working, honest agents, that they were only wasting their time by following anything beyond the truck bomb.

So few people understand them. They pointed people in a certain direction and said, "Go look there" and the lower-level investigators say, "Yes, sir" and that's what happened here. Somebody above the level of the FBI, inside the government, is managing this investigation. They may ultimately have links outside the government, but it goes high up.

As more and more information comes in, it's more and more confirmation of this thesis. At the "middle level" (the level of the execution of the bombing), more and more people begin to show up. There's more cover-up and more agencies in the federal government denying that they had prior knowledge. There are more and more witnesses who are being excluded by the FBI (especially in reference to the existence of John Doe No. 2).

We've seen the defecting grand juror in Oklahoma City, Hoppy Heidelberg, who didn't like the way the grand jury was being conducted in reference to the existence of John Doe No. 2.

The reason Heidelberg went public with his complaints (and possibly breaking the law in so doing) is that he felt that the existence of John Doe No. 2 was completely excluded from testimony.

Heidelberg suspected (as do many) that John Doe No. 2 would prove to be a government informant or government agent -- a "handler" for McVeigh. That's why, ultimately, the grand jury never took up the question of John Doe No. 2.

This is a man they had a sketch of. They had witnesses (who were never called to testify) who saw John Doe No. 2. There was one man, Mike Morose, who gave an interview to Channel 4 in Oklahoma City in which he said that he saw John Doe No. 2 standing there at around 8:40 am on the morning of the bombing right there in front of the federal building with McVeigh. This witness was never called before the grand jury. There was no significant testimony given about John Doe No. 2. This goes beyond being suspicious.

McVeigh had been arrested (on traffic violations charges) within about 90 minutes of the bombing and the sketch that they had of John Doe No. 1 (later identified as McVeigh) was enough to get the federal authorities over to Perry, Oklahoma where McVeigh was being held in jail. It was there that they arrested him as a suspect in the bombing about a day and a half later.

The sketch of John Doe No. 2, on the other hand, didn't result in anything even close to a subsequent arrest. In fact, the FBI began to pick up people who didn't even look like the person in the sketch of John Doe No. 2. Heidelberg became convinced, as a result, that the federal authorities were not doing their job and were not interested in pursuing John Doe No. 2 and he wanted to know why.

In my view, it doesn't seem likely that the guilty parties (whether within the government or otherwise) could convince the FBI to help cover up their complicity. It seems more likely, for example, that perhaps federal agents (maybe BATF) were attempting to ensnare McVeigh in a "sting" operation that went haywire and that, as a consequence, they would be more able to convince others to help cover that up instead. [CN -- See also the thesis put forward by Debra von Trapp, still not refuted and yet strangely ignored by some people. As von Trapp told me, no one "fed" her any disinformation for the simple reason that she was already inside the alleged operation she described.]

It's pretty easy, unfortunately, to say to these agents: "There's a bunch of nuts running around out there who say that there were bombs inside the building. That's ridiculous, of course. We're looking for evidence of the truck bomb and that's all we want you to focus on." The lower-level federal officials would buy that.

David Hall, another Oklahoma City bombing researcher, has done some excellent research. He believes that some sort of sting operation went awry. The point where Hall and I part company is that I believe that in order to create the damage that was done in this bombing that you had to have very carefully placed charges inside on the columns of the structure and therefore the idea of a "sting" seems to fail.

I could buy that argument if it was just McVeigh and they were leading him on and they intended to bust him and become famous and beloved all over America for foiling McVeigh's intended terrorist act. However, when you have the involvement of professionals (as it really went down), that seems to exceed the boundaries of a simple "sting" operation.

I have to agree with you there. That's a tough one to get around and it's a hard one for a lot of people to have to face.

Look at what happened to Hoppy Heidelberg. Here's a guy who went into the grand jury with a juror's handbook that spelled out juror's rights and when he got frustrated and tried to exercise those rights, by asking to question witnesses and call other witnesses (and do what a grand jury is empowered to do), he discovered that the prosecutors weren't going to let him do that. The prosecutors had decided who was going to be indicted and who wasn't and the grand jurors were expected to be a rubber stamp. And now Heidelberg still risks the possibility of going to jail for doing what he did.

There's more evidence that has come out?

That's right. Ray Brown, the university seismologist who determined initially that there were two blasts at the time of the bombing, has now concluded that there were actually three blasts. He says that the FBI has confiscated seismic evidence and that if you had the missing portions of the evidence that you would be able to nail it down conclusively. So that's the latest there.

We now have an expanded list of witnesses who have told either the FBI or Channel 4 that, in fact, they did see John Doe No. 2 and other suspects at the bombing scene. We have Gary Lewis, a press supervisor in the Journal-Record building across the street from the federal building. We have a banker whose name is Kyle Hunt.

All of these people were on the scene before the bombing and saw a Mercury Marquis and a brown Chevy pickup. They saw McVeigh and somebody who looked like the sketch of John Doe No. 2. But none of these people were called before the grand jury because they were not only talking about McVeigh, but they were also talking about John Doe No. 2.

What's the story about the judge in the case being thrown out?

The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times claimed that the reason why Judge Wayne Alley was dismissed from the case was because his office was across the street from the federal building and was damaged during the bombing and that this might cause him to be prejudiced against the defendants.

The real reason, however, appeared in the Portland Oregonian on April 20, one day after the bombing. In an interview with the Oregonian, Alley admitted that he received warning on April 3, by some government people whom he didn't name, that there was a suspicion that something was up; that something like a bombing was going to be happening in that neighborhood. So the judge took a vacation and that's why he wasn't in his office the day of the bombing. That's why he was taken off the case. That little tidbit would be far too much to deal with, suddenly popping up in the middle of the trial. One of his clerks was actually injured by some glass.

Judge Alley is from Portland, Oregon originally and that's how he happened to inadvertantly give this story to a Portland Oregonian reporter. The ramifications of the bombing and its aftermath are intense, particularly in light of the push for the anti-terrorist legislation.

Gunowners of America and the American Civil Liberties Union recently jointly sponsored a briefing on the dangers of the so- called anti-terrorist legislation that's before Congress.

People were amazed that the "right" and the "left" could stop trying to strangle each other long enough to agree with anything, yet here they were agreeing very much that this legislation is repressive. I think that's very encouraging.

That's right. The left and the right have much more in common in many regards than the Rush Limbaughs of the world would admit.

There's another interesting detail about the case that's worth noting. There's a fellow in custody in Phoenix named Steve Colburn who was arrested on May 13 because of some gun charges pending against him and he hadn't reported in. Apparently his brown pickup truck had pulled over on the side of the road when Oklahoma trooper Charles Hanger arrested McVeigh. Hanger's videocamera apparently caught the license plate of Colburn's truck.

Yet, Colburn has been on ice since then and has said nothing. He did know McVeigh. We know that. Yet Colburn hasn't been officially charged in the bombing. So who knows what they are trying to do? Are they trying to get Colburn to do what McVeigh's friend, Michael Fortier, did: Turn around completely from saying that McVeigh couldn't have had anything to do with the bombing to saying that he actually helped McVeigh case the building?

One of the most staggering things in the Oklahoma bombing is that the media has hardly interviewed any of the hundreds of people who escaped the bombing, despite the fact that there are hundreds of reporters covering the story.

The reason for this, I think, is that of the stories of survivors that I have heard, are extremely damaging to the official scenario.

One story reveals that there were at least two explosions and that the interior explosion came just slightly before the truck bomb, if we are to believe at least two witnesses who were in the building who have told this story.

We've heard that the people of Oklahoma City are scared to death of their own public servants, especially the FBI.

This might have something to do with the fact that some 45 percent of the people of Oklahoma work for some facet of the government.

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